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#21 Donna

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 07:53 PM

The terms "hater" and "racist" are overused?  A lot of hate and racism running rampant, especially on the Indiana capital floor.  "Reasoned opinions or deeply held beliefs" like hating or being a racist?  That slime was donned when approving this evil legislation, that Pence, himself, acknowledged he was unaware of any current controversies in Indiana.   This is not religious, it is against the teachings of Christ. 


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#22 Persona Non Grata

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 08:07 PM

The terms "hater" and "racist" are overused?  A lot of hate and racism running rampant, especially on the Indiana capital floor.  "Reasoned opinions or deeply held beliefs" like hating or being a racist?


Now Donna. We mustn't use those words. It's not politically correct. You might offend somebody.

#23 Donna

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 08:24 PM

PNG, you just made me LMAO and I don't have a lot to spare! 



#24 snowman

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 08:38 PM

I don't think of it as "forcing someone to bake a cake"... they're in the business to bake cakes, why does religion have to play a role in it?  this won't stop anyone from ordering a cake for someone else, or even keep any person from eating the baked cake. this law has one purpose, to jab a minority. gawd how stupid is that?

 

this is basically sharia law, for "Christians" and it will not end well for Indiana... lost business, I read the NCAA may move their HQ out of Indy over this. wow.

 

and how interesting, Indianapolis ranks 13th in the most godless cities list I read today. seems like it oughta be first now.


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#25 Donna

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 09:09 PM

My church has its headquarters in Indy with its 2017 convention slated for Indy.  They are now looking to move the convention to another state. 

 

Hoosiers will lose with this hateful legislation, but it firms up the bona fides of GOPer Mike Pence who is flattered to be floated as a presidential prospect.  Must drink the kool-aid.  He sucks! 


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#26 Dave

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 09:22 PM

Here is my plan. It is ambitious and will require cooperation from legal and theological experts, along with a new god or gods. We will also need volunteers to function as clergy and associated officials.

 

A new religion with the following tenets:

 

1) It is forbidden to pay state taxes

2) see tenet 1)

 

That's a religion that makes more sense than a lot of others out there. Plus Indiana has to respect it. As a bonus, I suggest replacing communion wine with beer, but that is negotiable.


Edited by Dave, 26 March 2015 - 09:40 PM.

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#27 JHS1982

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 09:41 PM

As the PROUD father of a gay son (yes......I'm EVERY bit as proud of my gay son as I am of my "straight" daughter......my children's "sexual orientation" DOES NOT define them as human beings!!), I'm torn about this legislation. Am I "against" it? YOU D A M N BETCHA.......more so because it hits "close to home." ANY parent with a heart NEVER wants to see their child discriminated (bullied??....you decide!!) against, or have their life made more difficult SIMPLY for loving another human being (is that really so bad??). But by the same token, I feel strongly that, if a taxpaying business owner decides to show his/her "bigoted side," they should have the freedom to do so......I hate the fact that the government deems it necessary to infringe on the free market system. If a bakery (for example) chooses not to bake a wedding cake for my son one day (after he finds a partner and decides to marry), so be it. Will that hurt?? TO THE CORE, NO DOUBT. But I'm a firm believer in letting the free market decide whether said business will survive the bigotry. THAT BEING SAID, my only "problem" with this legislation is the "veil" it allows these businesses to hide under........if you're going to protect these businesses' rights, vowing "religious freedom" (bigotry no matter how you look at it......"religious freedom" is just PC so that all practicing it can feel good about themselves as they walk down the aisle and sit in their pew each Sunday!!), these businesses should be REQUIRED to post signage in their businesses referencing their "religious freedom and their right to refuse service to certain groups / peoples because of religous beliefs / practices." That way, it protects ALL CONSUMERS from trading with known bigots!! After all, many "straight" people are allies to the LBGTQ community and may choose NOT to do business with such bigots IF they know the business owners position ahead of time. So, in my opinion, this legislation should require this information BE POSTED PROMINENTLY AND UP FRONT IN THEIR PLACE OF BUSINESS and let the consumer choose. Call it "consumer protection" at its finest........if they want protection of "religious freedom," consumers deserve the same kind / type of protection. Then and ONLY THEN will I be okay with this legislation.

Lastly, this legislation can REALLY open up a Pandora's Box.......where do we draw the line? My daughter is a paramedic......does she have the right to refuse to treat someone that she knows is a religious zealot or a homophobe (after all, she LOVES her brother who is gay!!)? Granted, she's not a business owner, but it's a legitimate question to ask. What about the doctor who owns his / her own practice? Can they refuse to do CPR on a extreme right-wing conservative in need simply because they have different religious views from the extreme conservative (you know........."well, this a-hole's gonna die because MY GOD says to love all people, but he and I do not see eye-to-eye religiously because HIS GOD allows him to discriminate"). Far-fetched?? Probably. Possible? Because of this legislation, ABSOLUTELY!!! My point is, where does it end?

I'll finish by saying this: As many of you know, and based on my posts on the Chatter, I'm a fiscal conservative. I used to be a "social conservative" as well.......that is until my son "came out" about a year ago. And you know what guys?? What a D U M B A S S I was!!!! I was an embarrassment to myself!! It took something like my son coming out to open my eyes. HOW STUPID, AND HOW ASHAMED I AM OF MYSELF FOR THAT!! Yes......I wasn't an "extreme".......but I could probably have been described as a "homophobe." AND FOR WHAT??? BECAUSE TWO HUMAN BEINGS HAVE CONSENSUAL, LEGAL LOVE FOR ONE ANOTHER? REALLY?? How screwed up was I???? I'M SO SORRY FOR MY PAST, AND IT TOOK MY SON TO OPEN MY EYES.........THAT'S D A M N SAD, AND I AM ASHAMED OF MYSELF!!! Yes, I've grown as a person and hopefully have become a more caring, considerate human being in the past year........God knows I've still got a long way to go.........but I'm trying to become more and more compassionate. So for those who are "okay" with the "bigotry," try it. Why get worked up over something that (a) has nothing to do with or effects you, and (b) worked up over LOVE.......at the end of the day, THAT'S what it is folks..........LOVE!!! Until I sat down and did some soul-searching on myself, I couldn't see that.......but I do now, thus the reason for my embarrassment over my previous "short-sightedness." And for those of you who think my son's homosexuality is a "choice," you'll NEVER know........sure it's easy to sit back and "arm-chair" YOUR beliefs (whether homosexuality is a choice). But during that period of soul-searching, the "deep talks" I had with my son convinced me without a doubt that this WAS NOT his "choice." It's who and what he is..........AND IT'S LOVE........is that really so wrong????

Rod Daily

Edited by JHS1982, 26 March 2015 - 09:52 PM.

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#28 Dave

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 10:00 PM

Rod, thanks for the thoughtful post. My boys are still toddlers but I hope that whoever they love in the future will become a part of my familiy. We can talk about the freedom of business owners to operate as they please, but that freedom had been a fiction forever.

 

Case Study 1) I decide to open up a bar. I tap a few kegs in my garage, put up a sign saying "Dave's Tavern" and let the customers roll in. I won't be open very long.

 

Case Study 2) I avoid liquor laws and set up a barber shop. I buy some scissors, put a chair in my garage, put up a sign saying "Dave's Barber Shop" and let the customers roll in. I still won't be open very long.

 

A public business is subject to certain licensing requirements. The Libertarians among us might argue whether that is the way it should be, but the conservatives among us deal with reality and that it the way it has always been. Requiring businesses in the state of Indiana to follow state law or get shut down is nothing new. This "exemption" for religious reasons makes no sense to me.


Edited by Dave, 26 March 2015 - 10:01 PM.

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#29 CityBoy

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 10:19 PM

The baker believes gay marriage is immoral. There is no right or wrong to that belief. It is his BELIEF. You can condemn it until the cows come home. But just because you hold a different belief doesn't mean he is a bigot. He could just as easily label you as a bigot because you are intolerant of his beliefs.
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#30 Donna

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 10:26 PM

BS, Cityboy!  The hypothetical baker is a BIGOT.  Same as the one who believes that blacks should sit at the back of the bus or drink from a different water fountain . . . BIGOT.  If being intolerant to bigoted beliefs makes me a bigot in your eyes, I can live with that.


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#31 JHS1982

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 10:36 PM

The baker believes gay marriage is immoral. There is no right or wrong to that belief. It is his BELIEF. You can condemn it until the cows come home. But just because you hold a different belief doesn't mean he is a bigot. He could just as easily label you as a bigot because you are intolerant of his beliefs.


And while I don't disagree with that position, CityBoy, I DO believe the legislation should require the business owner (who thinks he / she may refuse to serve a customer for religious beliefs) to display that position PROMINENTLY & INCONSPICULOUSLY in their business so that consumers can make an "informed choice" as to whether or not they want to do business in the establishment. After all, if they're "so proud" of their religious convictions, shouldn't they want to display that, or is it only displayed and / or practiced when it's "convenient" for said business so as not to hurt their bottom line? What are they afraid of?? Display it, & I'm FINE with them refusing service to ANYONE they choose!!

Rod Daily
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#32 Donna

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 10:49 PM

:goodpost:  JHS1982.  I'd like to know BEFORE I spend a nickel with anyone that their business engages in bigoted thought processes for their "beliefs."

Please don't call them "Christian beliefs" 'cause the good Lord never shunned anyone.


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#33 kelley

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 10:50 PM

The fact that he insisted on doing this behind closed doors is very telling - it tells me the man doesn't have the courage of his alleged convictions.


I heard they were closet doors.
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#34 kelley

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 10:53 PM

I don't think of it as "forcing someone to bake a cake"...

They say they don't want to bake a cake.

Someone says they have to bake a cake or be punished.

Edited by kelley, 26 March 2015 - 10:57 PM.


#35 kelley

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 10:55 PM

Here is my plan. It is ambitious and will require cooperation from legal and theological experts, along with a new god or gods. We will also need volunteers to function as clergy and associated officials.

A new religion with the following tenets:

1) It is forbidden to pay state taxes
2) see tenet 1)

That's a religion that makes more sense than a lot of others out there. Plus Indiana has to respect it. As a bonus, I suggest replacing communion wine with beer, but that is negotiable.



Coming in 2015: Kelley's Dudeist Ministry!

Thou shalt call Caesar a fascist and tell him his aggression will not stand.
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#36 kelley

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 10:58 PM

:goodpost: JHS1982. I'd like to know BEFORE I spend a nickel with anyone that their business engages in bigoted thought processes for their "beliefs."
Please don't call them "Christian beliefs" 'cause the good Lord never shunned anyone.


How would you know if discrimination is illegal?

#37 Tina

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 11:02 PM

:goodpost:  JHS1982.  I'd like to know BEFORE I spend a nickel with anyone that their business engages in bigoted thought processes for their "beliefs."

Please don't call them "Christian beliefs" 'cause the good Lord never shunned anyone.

Rod's just saying what I was saying earlier!  :tongue:

 

Right now you are possibly willingly giving a bigot money & helping him be successful.  With that success, maybe he lobbies government.  Most likely you disagree with much of what he lobbies for (including possibly this law!)

 

But because the current laws said he had to hide his bigotry or face lawsuits, you were unwittingly helping line his pockets (and his favored politicians).

Maybe it's because I have thick skin (and I think Rod does too) that I don't let other people's opinions of me cause me to lose any sleep.  If I wanted a cake that someone refused to bake for me, I'd find someone else willing to take my money.  I wouldn't force someone to take my money.  It's just really illogical if you think it through.  And the increasing # of lawsuits are the cause for this over-reaction (this new law) from the politicians.  Instead of trying to force someone to take their money they should have just found someone else willing to service them.

 

I just still can't wrap my head around forcing someone who HATES ME to take my money.  That's how dumb I think the lawsuits are.

 


Edited by Tina, 26 March 2015 - 11:04 PM.

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#38 Donna

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 11:03 PM

Ummmm . . . as a white chick I don't worry in my day to day living about legal or illegal discrimination.  I can, however, call 'em as I see 'em. 

 

Your point is?

 

Edit to point out that this is directed at Kelley.  To Tina, I don't lose sleep over this crap, but it weighs heavy on my heart.  Legislate that.


Edited by Donna, 26 March 2015 - 11:07 PM.


#39 Dave

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 11:06 PM

Coming in 2015: Kelley's Dudeist Ministry!

Thou shalt call Caesar a fascist and tell him his aggression will not stand.

 

Awesome! My religion is still in need of a lay person, a bishop, and a deity. You can have your pick of the jobs.



#40 Donna

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 11:21 PM

Oh, oh, oh, I want to be the lay person!






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