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Operation Fast and Furious


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#1 Quasar

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 07:45 PM

On December 14, 2010, Border Patrol Agent Brian A. Terry was shot while conducting a Border Patrol Tactical Unit operation in the area of ‘Peck Wells.’ This area is near Rio Rico, Ariz., and about 15 miles north of Nogales, Ariz. Agent Terry was murdered with a weapon provided by Operation Fast and Furious. The United States Federal Government assisted in this mans murder. I hope that we have the courage to find every last person that broke our laws to do this and prosecute them to the fullest extend of the law. While we are seeing some movement in this matter, I'll be surprised if they actually take action at the highest levels but it appears that these crimes go all the way to the cabinet level of the administration. The Department of Justice and the Attorney General have been named as having been involved in this travesty.

In Remembrance of Brian Terry US Border Patrol


More here on Fast and Furious:

http://en.wikipedia....ast_and_Furious


Kenneth Melson is expected to fall on the sword:

http://www.cnn.com/2...st.and.furious/


The "sentiment" from higher-ups, according to one agent's testimony, was "if you are going to make an omelet, you need to scramble some eggs." It was only when Agent Terry was murdered and two AK-47s that had "walked" were found at the scene, that the operation came under scrutiny.

http://online.wsj.co...4276380486.html


Have you been following this story? What are your thoughts on the matter?

#2 Pesty Version 2

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 08:04 AM

I have followed this story. It's insane. Whoever was involved and/or approved of selling weapons to Mexican criminal gangs should be busted down to the janitorial staff...at best!

#3 cyrusthegreat

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 09:34 AM

Be interesting to hear what Randy Weaver has to say about this. Anybody remember him?

Back to the topic: My thoughts are quite direct; This 'program' goes all the way to the top of the line, ie, Holder and in all likelihood, Obamba as well. But, a low level scapegoat will be designated and thrown to the wolves while in the meantime Obamba and his thugs will continue their reign of terror.
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#4 Pesty Version 2

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 07:45 PM

Be interesting to hear what Randy Weaver has to say about this. Anybody remember him?

Back to the topic: My thoughts are quite direct; This 'program' goes all the way to the top of the line, ie, Holder and in all likelihood, Obamba as well. But, a low level scapegoat will be designated and thrown to the wolves while in the meantime Obamba and his thugs will continue their reign of terror.


Cyrus, I don't know how high up it goes but anyone who thought this was a bright idea should have there butts kicked.

I remember Randy Weaver and then, of course, Waco. The arrogance of the BATF
in those episodes made me wanna throw up. Also made be very leery of any ATF operation. For my money ATF should be disbanded and should have been after Ruby Ridge and Especially Waco.

#5 Citizen5

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 09:45 PM

There is no constitutional purpose for the BATF to exist. Yet we, the voters, continue to accept it. We only need look in the mirror for the responsible party.

We can shake off our past mistakes and correct the future or we can continue to vote ourselves into slavery. Either way we will have only ourselves to thank.

Edited by Citizen5, 23 June 2011 - 08:02 PM.


#6 Oldgoat

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Posted 23 June 2011 - 01:07 AM

Just one more "impeachable act" to ad to Obama's list. This may be his most stupid one and could very well be considered treasonous. Obama and Holder cooked this up to discredit law-abiding firearms owners. Let's hope is discredits them instead.

#7 Pesty Version 2

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Posted 23 June 2011 - 08:41 AM

Just one more "impeachable act" to ad to Obama's list. This may be his most stupid one and could very well be considered treasonous. Obama and Holder cooked this up to discredit law-abiding firearms owners. Let's hope is discredits them instead.


I got it. You don't like Obama. But do you have any basis in fact to say Obama (or Holder) was 'in on it'? If you do, and they were, ...yeah,
totally stupid. (Treasonous? not so much). But, anyway, I didn't see
anything that makes me think this went higher than the Director of BATF.

#8 Quasar

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Posted 23 June 2011 - 09:16 AM

But do you have any basis in fact to say Obama (or Holder) was 'in on it'?


It's unfortunate however I believe time will prove that this goes much higher than the BATF.

From testimony yesterday:

The agents testified that Assistant U.S. Attorney Emory Hurley, a Phoenix-based appointee of President Obama, "orchestrated" Operation Fast and Furious. ATF Phoenix field office supervisor Peter Forcelli, for example, told the committee: "I have read documents that indicate that his boss, U.S. Attorney Dennis Burke, also agreed with the direction of the case." That direction was established sometime after Obama was inaugurated in 2009 when Phoenix ATF agents, breaking with long-established agency practice, were ordered to monitor, but not stop, gun sales to suspected gun traffickers. The agents testified that Phoenix ATF supervisor David Voth "was jovial, if not, not giddy, but just delighted" when Fast and Furious guns were subsequently recovered at multiple Mexican drug busts. And emails released Thursday by Rep. Darrell Issa,R-Calif., revealed that acting director Kenneth Melson even arranged to watch live feeds from ATF cameras in gun stores being used by the program while sitting at his desk.

Documents released by the Issa panel make it clear that Operation Fast and Furious was well-known and enthusiastically supported at the highest leveIs of ATF. That means the program had to have been supported elsewhere within the Justice Department. Thus, it is inconceivable that Holder did not know about Operation Fast and Furious. But even if he didn't know, he clearly should have. Either way, Wednesday's hearing provided the latest evidence that it's past time for Holder to go.

http://washingtonexa...d-holder-tenure


EDIT to Add:

ATF special agent Jay Dobyns joins us. Good evening, sir. JAY DOBYNS, ATF SPECIAL AGENT: Good evening. Thanks for having me.

VAN SUSTEREN: Sir, in terms of "Fast and Furious," do you know who came up with the idea and how high up the chain of the command it was authorized?

DOBYNS: Well, we believe it was generated in part through the attorney general's office, through the Department of Justice, all the way down through ATF to the field-level employees.

VAN SUSTEREN: Do you know -- in terms of the Justice Department, do you -- I mean, the attorney general's office, do you mean the attorney general himself? Do you have any information to know whether he OK'd it, looked at -- or knew it existed?

DOBYNS: This is not a plan or a program that was initiated by street agents and put into play without approvals at

VAN SUSTEREN: Do you have any -- let me ask you this again because I want to be specific. Do you have -- have you heard any information that the attorney general of the United States knew this, that he himself knew this program was going on?

DOBYNS:
I believe he's been very careful about his words. To say that he approved it -- he's denied his approval of it. But to think that something like this is going on to the scale and to the volume that it did, as the attorney general, as the leader of the Department of Justice and not know about it? That's a lose-lose for him. He either had to know about it and didn't do anything about it, or he didn't know about it and it shows that he's incompetently running the Department of Justice!

http://www.foxnews.c...-and-furious039

Edited by Quasar, 23 June 2011 - 09:44 AM.


#9 Pesty Version 2

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Posted 23 June 2011 - 08:59 PM

It's unfortunate however I believe time will prove that this goes much higher than the BATF.

From testimony yesterday:

The agents testified that Assistant U.S. Attorney Emory Hurley, a Phoenix-based appointee of President Obama, "orchestrated" Operation Fast and Furious. ATF Phoenix field office supervisor Peter Forcelli, for example, told the committee: "I have read documents that indicate that his boss, U.S. Attorney Dennis Burke, also agreed with the direction of the case." That direction was established sometime after Obama was inaugurated in 2009 when Phoenix ATF agents, breaking with long-established agency practice, were ordered to monitor, but not stop, gun sales to suspected gun traffickers. The agents testified that Phoenix ATF supervisor David Voth "was jovial, if not, not giddy, but just delighted" when Fast and Furious guns were subsequently recovered at multiple Mexican drug busts. And emails released Thursday by Rep. Darrell Issa,R-Calif., revealed that acting director Kenneth Melson even arranged to watch live feeds from ATF cameras in gun stores being used by the program while sitting at his desk.

Documents released by the Issa panel make it clear that Operation Fast and Furious was well-known and enthusiastically supported at the highest leveIs of ATF. That means the program had to have been supported elsewhere within the Justice Department. Thus, it is inconceivable that Holder did not know about Operation Fast and Furious. But even if he didn't know, he clearly should have. Either way, Wednesday's hearing provided the latest evidence that it's past time for Holder to go.

http://washingtonexa...d-holder-tenure


EDIT to Add:

ATF special agent Jay Dobyns joins us. Good evening, sir. JAY DOBYNS, ATF SPECIAL AGENT: Good evening. Thanks for having me.

VAN SUSTEREN: Sir, in terms of "Fast and Furious," do you know who came up with the idea and how high up the chain of the command it was authorized?

DOBYNS: Well, we believe it was generated in part through the attorney general's office, through the Department of Justice, all the way down through ATF to the field-level employees.

VAN SUSTEREN: Do you know -- in terms of the Justice Department, do you -- I mean, the attorney general's office, do you mean the attorney general himself? Do you have any information to know whether he OK'd it, looked at -- or knew it existed?

DOBYNS: This is not a plan or a program that was initiated by street agents and put into play without approvals at

VAN SUSTEREN: Do you have any -- let me ask you this again because I want to be specific. Do you have -- have you heard any information that the attorney general of the United States knew this, that he himself knew this program was going on?

DOBYNS:
I believe he's been very careful about his words. To say that he approved it -- he's denied his approval of it. But to think that something like this is going on to the scale and to the volume that it did, as the attorney general, as the leader of the Department of Justice and not know about it? That's a lose-lose for him. He either had to know about it and didn't do anything about it, or he didn't know about it and it shows that he's incompetently running the Department of Justice!

http://www.foxnews.c...-and-furious039



So speculation but no facts. Excuse me for not being impressed with the
rumination of an ex 'special ATF agent'.

He may be right but this doesn't get it.
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#10 roundots

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Posted 23 June 2011 - 09:30 PM

Thanks for your post PV2.

#11 Oldgoat

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Posted 24 June 2011 - 03:06 AM

Well PV2, it didn't take the lefties long to blame Bush when Ol' Brownie said, "I've got it under control" after Katrina. Holder is directly in charge and to think that an "acting" Chief of BATF has the authority to run an operation like this without Holder AND Premier Obama's approval is at best naive and at worst, complicit.

#12 Pesty Version 2

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Posted 24 June 2011 - 11:58 AM

In my lifetime, the Waco debacle was, maybe, the worst thing I recall our government doing. At the center of that was the idiotic arrogance and cowboy mentality of BATF. I also blame Clinton for
not stopping it. (I always wondered why the BATF didn't just step back, withdraw and send court summons to Koresh. I am certain he would have shown up ... he would never have missed a chance
to play martyr (as we know). But it was, apparently shear institutional 'pride' (hubris) that refused to acknowledge this possible tactic. Scores died. Horrible.

It may be Obama knew of "Fast and Furious" (Don't you love it when our law enforcement take their project names from "really cool" movies and video games?) but I kinda doubt it. As a policy happening under
his administration he gets the blame though whether he actually knew or not. In either case, what he should be doing is ordering a housecleaning of ATF and Justice of those involved in this moronic
plan along with a humiliating apology issued to the Mexican government. (I understand that Mexico was kept in the dark about this project...BRILLIANT!!!).

If Obama doesn't clean house, then you will be entitled to your rancor with him Old Goat. But, It seems like, to me, you are mistaken if you consider this kind of incompetence a left-right issue.

#13 Pesty Version 2

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Posted 24 June 2011 - 12:00 PM

Let me add, I think the USA should do a top down review of EVERY agency, department, division or bureau. Any 'project' that takes its name from a 'cool' movie or a video game or some Facebook application that is 'cool' must be AXED now!

Edited by Pesty Version 2, 24 June 2011 - 12:01 PM.


#14 Oldgoat

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Posted 25 June 2011 - 12:37 PM

As Harry Truman once said, "The buck stops here!" Obama and Holder are responsible for what their appointees do.

#15 Pesty Version 2

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Posted 25 June 2011 - 02:52 PM

As Winston Churchill once said, "a fanatic is someone who can't change his mind and won't change the subject"
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#16 Oldgoat

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Posted 25 June 2011 - 08:27 PM

Exactly! Obama has failed miserably yet his supporters won't change their minds.

#17 Pesty Version 2

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 12:22 AM

some folks can't change their subject.

#18 Quasar

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 09:43 AM

Old Goat and Pesty 2... you are trashing a very important thread. If you two want to beat on each other, please do it privately.

Now back on topic please.

I am interested in seeing a transcript of all testimony given in the house hearings on this. Anyone know where to find that?

#19 cyrusthegreat

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 10:06 AM

Old Goat and Pesty 2... you are trashing a very important thread. If you two want to beat on each other, please do it privately.

Now back on topic please.

I am interested in seeing a transcript of all testimony given in the house hearings on this. Anyone know where to find that?


Try this link: http://www.fednews.com/

#20 Pesty Version 2

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 12:44 PM

Please remove my posts which trash this very important thread.




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